Minor gripe: it seems to this Orthodox Christian the Celts were already united with the rest of the Christian world to the East. Those saints like Bede etc are considered to be Orthodox saints
I think that far back, trying to apply the distinctions and categorisations we have now between Orthodox and Catholic, or east and west, is essentially meaningless.
And the Celtic Church until the Synod of Whitby was only connected to anything from the mainland by an extremely tenuous thread. Irish Christianity was its own thing, and while it understood itself to be part of the universal Church - the Irish monks were some of the most highly educated people in western Europe at the time - the habit of our contemporary Orthodox to lay claim for their "side" - and against the papacy - all Christianity of the Isles before 1054 is a shameless retconning of history.
Don't forget that the Roman date for Easter was what was decided on at Whitby, in a discussion not between representatives of Constantinople and the Irish but between representatives of the Holy See in Rome and the Irish, between the Celts of the Islands, and the representatives of the Papacy in Rome who sent Augustine to Britain. The idea that a monk of the 7th century British Isles would have even grasped the modern concept of "Orthodoxy", as opposed to Roman Catholic, is absurd. The ecclesiastical language of the Islands was Latin, not Greek.
Wow!! I feel I've been living under a rock - I never knew this history. Incredible. I will look into your book suggestions. I feel my mind has just greatly expanded. And those carpet pages- unbelievable intricacy and artistry.
Wow. This is riveting stuff…Makes me want to return to Bede. I read him in a medieval Latin class in college. It was a graduate class and my Latin was not great at the time. I was often so behind I struggled to enjoy much of what we read. I think I may enjoy him more now on my own time haha
You can have all of our airports, electricity, surgeries, life expectancy, central heating, indoor plumbing, automobiles and right down the list -- all of it combined pales badly in comparison to one page of such an illumnated manuscript.
Those people made the paper, the ink, the pens and recorded their souls on those images. We are blessed indeed that such wonders still exist. And we should be a bit embarrassed to point to our progress.
Thank you for the correction Ms. White! So does that mean the pens were not ballpoints? 😄
It is humbling that I consider myself knowledgable in a well-rounded way, have a background in the art and antiques trade, have read the word “parchment” a million times, seen it mentioned in context of actual objects in museums and art history books … and still did not know what it is.
Oooohhh... You've just given me a great idea for a post! Thanks! historical fun-fact: they had paper in Italy, and paper making as an industry, as far back as the 14th century. The town of Fabriano, in Le Marche, about an hour from here, has a paper museum because it is the centre from which European paper production spread to the rest of the western world. But it was still a high end luxury item and not widely used. Of course, paper is really perishable, so any document or book that needed to last a long time was still done on parchment. It was really the rise of the printing press that made paper a more economically viable product. Paper was much easier to print on with a machine than parchment, and of course way faster and easier to produce. Oh man... this is really getting my brain working. of course parchment is still made and used for important documents that are intended to last a long time. But paper quality is still really important to artists. I actually buy hand made paper made from cotton fibre (who'd have wood pulp?) from a guy who makes it in his home workshop in Fabriano. He comes to Narni's medieval festa every year in the summer and sets up a stall and I buy a few large sheets of his thick watercolour paper. I've been meaning for ages to get over to Fabriano to visit VIto in his workshop, and to take a stroll around the paper museum - that has one of the last original working water-powered hammer mills in Europe - and do a feature.
And there's an important aesthetic cultural development over paper's widespread use starting in the 16th century. That of course was when we started having a truncated idea of time. So a monk making a book in a monastery in the 12th century would understand that it was a long-term project intended to last a thousand years. And of course they did last that long. But that was perfectly OK - a book was as important a cultural and often religious artefact as a church or a panel icon. And the idea that Christian society was going to last until the Last Day was simply taken as read. But along comes the massive changes of the 16th century and all of a sudden nothing seems permanent. So books being printed on paper by a machine gave us the cultural idea that ideas aren't permanent, didn't speak of eternal things anymore. They were just temporary, intellectual fast-food - quickie Bright Ideas cooked up by Some Guy and spread around like popcorn in a second-run movie house. The idea that books printed quickly by a machine on cheap and not-lasting paper, and the ideas in them, could just be entertainment for people without enough to do started being a mainstay of our intellectual culture.
And that contrasts interestingly with the use made of paper in Japan, with a totally different take on the non-lastingness of paper and the kind of art you make on paper.
Ms. White, becoming a paid subscriber the other day was the best decision I’ve made in awhile. Don’t quite have the adjective to describe your erudition, but am sure glad you are here with us.
Here’s another idea for you: Why don’t you start a salon, where for the paltry admission price of 100 bucks/pounds/whatevers per hour we could sit with you over tea and just absorb your knowledge? Much less costly than a university.
I made a wonderful visit to Lindisfarne last year. There's a convenient bus from the charming border town of Berwick upon Tweed for those without a car.
Also not to be missed are the remains of the double abbey of Monkwearmouth (now part of Sunderland) and Jarrow (a suburb of Newcastle today). Both surviving churches are mighty impressive with significant parts extant from Bede's day, and at Jarrow there's a superb museum dedicated to Bede and his times as well as a reproduction monastic farm.
Minor gripe: it seems to this Orthodox Christian the Celts were already united with the rest of the Christian world to the East. Those saints like Bede etc are considered to be Orthodox saints
I think that far back, trying to apply the distinctions and categorisations we have now between Orthodox and Catholic, or east and west, is essentially meaningless.
And the Celtic Church until the Synod of Whitby was only connected to anything from the mainland by an extremely tenuous thread. Irish Christianity was its own thing, and while it understood itself to be part of the universal Church - the Irish monks were some of the most highly educated people in western Europe at the time - the habit of our contemporary Orthodox to lay claim for their "side" - and against the papacy - all Christianity of the Isles before 1054 is a shameless retconning of history.
Don't forget that the Roman date for Easter was what was decided on at Whitby, in a discussion not between representatives of Constantinople and the Irish but between representatives of the Holy See in Rome and the Irish, between the Celts of the Islands, and the representatives of the Papacy in Rome who sent Augustine to Britain. The idea that a monk of the 7th century British Isles would have even grasped the modern concept of "Orthodoxy", as opposed to Roman Catholic, is absurd. The ecclesiastical language of the Islands was Latin, not Greek.
Wow!! I feel I've been living under a rock - I never knew this history. Incredible. I will look into your book suggestions. I feel my mind has just greatly expanded. And those carpet pages- unbelievable intricacy and artistry.
Wow. This is riveting stuff…Makes me want to return to Bede. I read him in a medieval Latin class in college. It was a graduate class and my Latin was not great at the time. I was often so behind I struggled to enjoy much of what we read. I think I may enjoy him more now on my own time haha
You can have all of our airports, electricity, surgeries, life expectancy, central heating, indoor plumbing, automobiles and right down the list -- all of it combined pales badly in comparison to one page of such an illumnated manuscript.
Those people made the paper, the ink, the pens and recorded their souls on those images. We are blessed indeed that such wonders still exist. And we should be a bit embarrassed to point to our progress.
Well, parchment, ink and pens. Not so much paper.
Thank you for the correction Ms. White! So does that mean the pens were not ballpoints? 😄
It is humbling that I consider myself knowledgable in a well-rounded way, have a background in the art and antiques trade, have read the word “parchment” a million times, seen it mentioned in context of actual objects in museums and art history books … and still did not know what it is.
Oooohhh... You've just given me a great idea for a post! Thanks! historical fun-fact: they had paper in Italy, and paper making as an industry, as far back as the 14th century. The town of Fabriano, in Le Marche, about an hour from here, has a paper museum because it is the centre from which European paper production spread to the rest of the western world. But it was still a high end luxury item and not widely used. Of course, paper is really perishable, so any document or book that needed to last a long time was still done on parchment. It was really the rise of the printing press that made paper a more economically viable product. Paper was much easier to print on with a machine than parchment, and of course way faster and easier to produce. Oh man... this is really getting my brain working. of course parchment is still made and used for important documents that are intended to last a long time. But paper quality is still really important to artists. I actually buy hand made paper made from cotton fibre (who'd have wood pulp?) from a guy who makes it in his home workshop in Fabriano. He comes to Narni's medieval festa every year in the summer and sets up a stall and I buy a few large sheets of his thick watercolour paper. I've been meaning for ages to get over to Fabriano to visit VIto in his workshop, and to take a stroll around the paper museum - that has one of the last original working water-powered hammer mills in Europe - and do a feature.
And there's an important aesthetic cultural development over paper's widespread use starting in the 16th century. That of course was when we started having a truncated idea of time. So a monk making a book in a monastery in the 12th century would understand that it was a long-term project intended to last a thousand years. And of course they did last that long. But that was perfectly OK - a book was as important a cultural and often religious artefact as a church or a panel icon. And the idea that Christian society was going to last until the Last Day was simply taken as read. But along comes the massive changes of the 16th century and all of a sudden nothing seems permanent. So books being printed on paper by a machine gave us the cultural idea that ideas aren't permanent, didn't speak of eternal things anymore. They were just temporary, intellectual fast-food - quickie Bright Ideas cooked up by Some Guy and spread around like popcorn in a second-run movie house. The idea that books printed quickly by a machine on cheap and not-lasting paper, and the ideas in them, could just be entertainment for people without enough to do started being a mainstay of our intellectual culture.
And that contrasts interestingly with the use made of paper in Japan, with a totally different take on the non-lastingness of paper and the kind of art you make on paper.
Yeah... this will be good.
And yours will be the first Substack reply I will print and save for future reference. Reads like an introduction to a scholarly book,
Ms. White, becoming a paid subscriber the other day was the best decision I’ve made in awhile. Don’t quite have the adjective to describe your erudition, but am sure glad you are here with us.
Here’s another idea for you: Why don’t you start a salon, where for the paltry admission price of 100 bucks/pounds/whatevers per hour we could sit with you over tea and just absorb your knowledge? Much less costly than a university.
Also, re: "erudition" - a very nice way of describing attention deficit disorder coupled with internet addiction and high-end Googling skills...
🤣
Aw... what a nice thing to say. Thanks.
This was an amazing read today. Awesome work as always.
I made a wonderful visit to Lindisfarne last year. There's a convenient bus from the charming border town of Berwick upon Tweed for those without a car.
Also not to be missed are the remains of the double abbey of Monkwearmouth (now part of Sunderland) and Jarrow (a suburb of Newcastle today). Both surviving churches are mighty impressive with significant parts extant from Bede's day, and at Jarrow there's a superb museum dedicated to Bede and his times as well as a reproduction monastic farm.
Both are reachable by Newcastle Metro and bus.